Talk:Magus
Split? While the Adept is pretty clearly an updated Magus, the Neophyte appears to be an updated Fanatic. I question why Adept and Neophyte are on the same page anyway, the demons have seemingly nothing in common aside from both being Messian magic users.--Otherarrow (talk) 22:37, August 12, 2016 (UTC) :No objection. -- Inpursuit (talk) 04:05, August 13, 2016 (UTC) ::pretty sure Neophyte is not an updated Fanatic. the staff held by Adept is worn on Neophyte's back, rather than it being a flag like held by Fanatic, and the word "neophyte" is often used to denote a low-level or newbie mage, so rather than there just being one like in SMT, in SMT2 there are Neophyte Magi (low ranking) and Adept Magi (high ranking). Tathra (talk) 08:32, August 13, 2016 (UTC) ::Pretty sure the staff on the Neophyte is meant to invoke the flag that the Fanatic waves around. On top of that, they share other design cues (shirtless, wears a Messian logo'd bandana on their head) and are roughly around the same level range. Neophyte can mean rookie mage...or a rookie member of the organization in general. (Of course, nothing stopping it from being both: the "newbie" Messian Magus is based on the Fanatic)--Otherarrow (talk) 13:18, August 13, 2016 (UTC) :::so you think we should group demons together because of similarities in the artwork alone? guess we'd better put Orthrus and Cerberus together, and Slime and Black Ooze together, and Stonka and Rakcharango together, and Tamamo and Senko together, and... the description of Magus from SMT gives reason enough to put them together: "The name means 'sorcerer,' though it is meant more like 'sage.'". there's no argument that Adept is an updated Magus, but why did they change the name to "Adept" instead of leaving it as "Magus"? to designate that Magus was split into more than just one demon, with a higher ranking, more skilled one (adept) and a lower ranking, less skilled one (neophyte). don't forget that the Messians run Tokyo in SMT2, so basically everyone in the city is a Messian, and given Fanatic's description, "Ordinary believers who blindly follow.", that would be just about everyone in SMT2, which is why an updated Fanatic makes no sense. Tathra (talk) 17:39, August 13, 2016 (UTC) ::::Now you are just being purposely obtuse. This is nothing like Orthrus and Cerberus (who are different figures with different designs who often coexist in the same game) or Slime an Black Ooze (who tend to be recolors of each other yes...but still coexist in the same game)...or all of those other demons who are different mythological beings who tend to co-exist with each other in at least one game. It is an entirely different case. Heck, by your logic, we should be splitting Neophyte from Adept, as their designs are nothing alike and they coexist in the same game (which was....half of what I was saying really). ::::Since we don't have translated bio info for SMTII demons, we really shouldn't make assumptions about what they are "intended" to be. For all we know, the intention of the Neophyte is that they are fanatical "new blood" into the Messians and the Adepts are just wisened members of the Church (indeed, that is the impression I always got from the names). Also, it's a plot point that most people don't blindly follow the Messians despite living in a Law ruled nation: the "Messian approved" Holytown is noted to be mostly empty while the more lax Vahalla is active and thriving, for one (but this is neither here nor there). ::::...Forgive me, but am I the only one feeling that your basis for them being the same demon (and one of them not being the SMTI demon they are pretty obviously meant to be an update of) amounts to them sharing a single design element and an interpretation on what the names mean? They don't even share similar stats or move pools either...--Otherarrow (talk) 19:30, August 13, 2016 (UTC) :::i have no problem with Neophyte being split off, it just shouldn't be merged with Fanatic. the names "Neophyte" and "Adept" do imply a relationship between the two, but unless we finally get a translation of the gba/ios version of SMT2, it can't really be confirmed. that said, does anyone know of a japanese site with the gba/ios A-Mode DDS Dictionary entries from SMT2? i know i've seen the Visionary Item transcripts (translated even), and such a thing would be useful in instances like this. Tathra (talk) 21:48, August 13, 2016 (UTC) ::::Well, at least we agree they are two separate demons. At the very least, we should note the design resemblances (similar to the Junk and the SMTI robot it was based on). And yeah, someone translating those would be a great help and good thing to have, even if they don't solve this particular thing.--Otherarrow (talk) 22:02, August 13, 2016 (UTC) :::that we're disagreeing at all over what Neophyte is supposed to be necessitates it being split off. making sure we have our information correct and not misleading is more important than accessibility and presentation. if somebody disagreed that Adept was an updated Magus then it would have to be split off too, because there's no solid, objective evidence that is actually is. requiring evidence for every little thing added would be excessively strict and would do more harm than good, but as long as everyone generally agrees with an assumption (ie, nobody disagrees and challenges it) its mostly fine. Tathra (talk) 01:07, August 14, 2016 (UTC)